Vyvanse in combination with...what?

Hi everyone,

Question regarding experiences with Vyvanse (Lisdexamphetamin, Elvanse) in combination with…

Anyone who uses max dosis of Vyvanse, but still has the need for combining with other medication to cover a whole day? And any experiences with a recommended combi?

  • I take 60-70 mg Vyvanse (longlasting) - and it works amazingly, is life-changing and with absolutely no side effects.
  • I usually burn medicine quickly (like some people do) and for Vyvanse the effect stops working after about 6-7 hours.
  • My problem?: I need to be covered all day, so I can take care of my kids from morning 7.00 am to 8.00 pm)
  • (I used Methylphenidate variants before and I had so many unacceptable side-effects: hopelessness, fatigue, shaking, irritability, loss of focus, jointpains, feeling of having fever - so, unfortunately, any methyphenidate variation is not possible for me)
  • My previous doctor would not use combi-treatments (which is thinking from the 90’ies) so I am planning to go to my sister’s doctor who is more updated in his research…
  • My sister already told me that her doctor suggests a combination of Elvanse (long) + Attentin (short) or the combi of Vyvanse + Atomoxetine (small dosis as a 24 hour cover underneath)
  • I have no history of any drug/substanse abuse, ever, at all, not even being extremely drunk on alcohol (never liked it…I need my brain :wink:

The thought of being covered all day…oh, I so whish it is possible for me - would be life-changing for me.

Tanks for any helpful thoughts…

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I’ve also heard about very often and I’m sorry, that your Doc would not go with you.

But, what about caffeine :teacup_without_handle: I’ve tested for me, in the afternoon and it works. No sleeping problems at night :sleeping_face: I think, it’s individual, but maybe also a way for you, for a test?

Or a nearby date, with your sis’s doc @Lady_North, to get a partner for Vyvanse (Elvanse):four_leaf_clover:

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Hi,

you might have a look here:

and here (different part of same site):

and here:

p.s.: Elvanse = Vyvanse in US

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Hi there :slight_smile:

I have the same “Problem” like you (including side effects with Methylphenidate).

My doctor gave me more then one dose of Vyvanse (Elvanse) per day to cover the whole day (I take completely 60mg but in smaller dose during the day. Otherwise I have no chance to cover the day.)

Maybe you can think about it and ask your doctor about his thoughts?

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Sounds like a good doctor to me :slight_smile:

Worst case you may want to ask the doctor about TDM (therapeutic drug monitoring) to measure the concentration levels of DEX (Dexamphetamine) in the bloodstream after time X, if you feel like it is not lasting long enough.

Elvanse/Vyvanse + Attentin (minimal dose - just enough to boost the plasma concentration level to stay in the therapeutic range) would be a working combo anyway.


Stimulants + non-stimulants work as well.
According to Russel Barkley, such a combination should (ideally) result in lower doses of both medications (which would be beneficial) and at the same time cover a wider range across the adhd symptom complex.


I‘m sure there are longer and more detailed videos out there by now, but I find it quite helpful :slight_smile:

https://youtu.be/LnS0PfNyj4U?si=yNzBa_Ohn6UrU4Q1

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Thanks for the advice Silberlocke.
Caffeine was what I was living on before ADHD-meds :slight_smile: But for me the combi of stimulants and caffeine is not good - super uncomfortable side effects and bad sleep. But I know it works for some people :wink:

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Thank you for the response SneedleDeeDoo.
I have not heard of TDM being used in DK at all—not that I know of anyway. I’m hoping to try the Elvanse + Atomoxitine combi—it sounds interesting and promising.
…now I just have to wait for a new appointment again :face_with_spiral_eyes: since my previous doctor did not use “combi”.

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…Yes, I can also split the dosis.
Actually, my doctor initially prescribed that I take (due to my fast burning of the meds):

  • 60 + 20 mg
  • or 40 +40 mg

But 40+40 gives me too little in either end of the day and too much in the overlap.
Somehow 60 mg + 20 mg later feels better. No idea why. But I don’t really feel the 20 mg, I guess.

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Interesting.
Thanks for the links!

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Vyvanse ist not so present. And 20mg is (in my case) pretty subtle.

But when you take a higher dose before not wondering that you think that you don’t feel the 20mg.

But this subtle feeling is how it works.

More / pushing is too much.

I take my 60mg in 3 x 20mg during the day.

And also have my reminder for them.
(Take it this way nearly 2 years and it works great (cause more is too much, less is not enough):slightly_smiling_face:)

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[Disclaimer, I have no professional credentials. Just got fed up and desperate and spent a few hundred hours researching various topics online. And I have a very high stimulant tolerance. I also understand this was originally posted 6 months ago. Still relevant information]

Before tacking on more meds I would first check to see if the brand you get has been the same all along. In the U.S. most generics of amphetamine based meds (active ingredient in Vyvanse, Elvanse, Adderall, Dexedrine, etc.) hardly work compared to the good generic brands. Due to excipients (inactive ingredients) affect on crossing the Blood Brain Barrier (BBB). I do not know if the effective brands contain an adjuvant (excipient that enhances the API (Active Pharmaceutical Ingredient)) or if the low effective brands inhibit the API from crossing the BBB. Amphetamine is particularly sensitive to this effect.
Personal example from generic Adderall IR, Aurobindo (aka aurolife or sometimes this specific product is sold under the brand Northstar) at 140mg was less effective and did not last as long as 40mg of a good brand like Corepharma (discontinued), Teva, or Sandoz. Due to issues crossing the BBB. Granted, peripheral side effects did respond to the high dose which sucked.

[I wish any therapist from 2007 till 2024 had any clue about this. Would have prevented my extreme tolerance and allowed me to get off Adderall. I am sensitive to the long term side effects]

Memantine or Strattera are your best combination options.
Everyone forgot that amphetamine, one of the primary effects is as an AMPA and NMDA/glutamate agonist. Which may be even more of an effect than direct dopamine or norepinephrine effects.
Agonist means it triggers the receptor, antagonist is a blocker.

AMPA induces fast synaptic transmission
NMDA continues effect of AMPA and releases glutamate.
Glutamate is the body’s primary stimulating and modulating neurotransmitter. Simply put, it enhances synaptic transmission of dopamine (DA) and norepinephrine (NE). I believe by reducing the threshold of stimulation required to propagate a synaptic transmission. So you need less NE and DA to elicit an effect.

Problem is, NMDA/glutamate pathways are highly sensitive to overstimulation (excitotoxicity) and amphetamine happens to be really good at it.
NMDA overstimulation allows excessive flux of ions which cause dysregulation and damage from oxidative stress. Excessive glutamate is released. Excessive glutamate triggers the extrasynaptic NMDA receptor, which triggers the apoptosis (automated cell death) cascade. i.e, can kill brain cells with extrasynaptic (outside the synapse) NMDA receptors. And many researchers believe that NMDA/glutamate excitotoxicity is the primary route to long term amphetamine tolerance.

Solution, NMDA antagonism (blockers) to protect and allow time to heal pathways. Which reduces tolerance. Or, prevents tolerance if starting early.
So, memantine (an Alzheimer’s drug) is specifically made to block overexcitement of the NMDA receptor while allowing it to function at normal levels. Which regulates glutamate levels too. So, amphetamine based meds can still have their NMDA/glutamate agonism, but it is limited to non-excitotoxic levels.

Which requires a therapist who practices “evidence based” medicine. Neurologists that treat ADHD are more likely to understand this as psychiatry is more of a behavioral based discipline and pharmacology/neurology is a small part of their overall training and discipline. Plus you have to find proof which can be hard since much of the research is in the context of “abuse” and “addiction” and less on prescribed levels of amphetamines that mention it can happen at prescribed levels.
Wish I bookmarked everything which would make this post a whole lot easier to verify contents.
Strattera has a secondary dose dependent effect as a noncompetitive NMDA antagonist. (Should be easy to find that online.) It is also easier to convince a therapist as an add on as it is technically a non-stimulant. The boost to NE helps, but it also takes time to build therapeutic effect. But, the NMDA antagonism does not have to build up, it happens at each dose you take. Overtime you will need to reduce your amphetamine meds dose.

Personal experience.:
Prescribed 60mg Adderall IR which was no longer strong enough. Had taken 80mg a few times for job interviews which was a lot better but not always fully effective, just better. Started Strattera (don’t recall every dose, but last time I was on 60mg of Strattera which worked fine. Probably work for most people at lower dose. Do not know best dose for people) In less than a year I had dropped my Adderall dose to 40mg which was fully effective, and persisted when I stopped taking Strattera. Until I again built up tolerance. Did this 3 times in about 11 years. 3rd time I stayed on past 1 year and at 15 months, 40mg was too strong. Should have reduced that dose but instead stopped taking strattera. No idea where it would bottom out. But going from close but not fully effective 80mg Adderall to a too strong 40mg is more than a 50% reduction in tolerance. And shows the NMDA/glutamate agonism they stopped mentioning when dopamine became the new hot topic.

If I get the energy, maybe I’ll make a post of some supplements that may help people too.

If this was the case, simple N-acetylcysteine might be helpful.
Quite high doses manage to reduce glutamate overactivity. That’s the way it might be helpful in reducing drug craving. I can post links to this, if you were interested

OK, now I understand what you meant in your other post that atomoxetine might be helpful in reduce amphetamine doses.
Yes, atomoxetine and stimulants can complement each other in their effect and together achieve greater symptom improvement than one alone.
I am sorry to hear that you have nevertheless developed a tolerance to amphetamine medication.
Perhaps it would help you to reduce the dose of Aderall at weekends and on public holidays so that your body can recover a little? 80 mg is already quite a lot anyway. +
You only shouldn’t stop taking it completely because amphetamine drugs have a steady state, i.e. they take around 3 days to build up the full effect level when metabolized normally, but still much faster than atomoxetine…

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I know my previous post was rather long and long winded. Which may be why I think you missed everything I was saying entirely. There are probably a number of concepts in there you might not be familiar with currently.

Really need to pay attention in my last post to see that I am giving advice and not in need of it. Strattera reduces Amphetamine tolerance by protecting the NMDA receptor from being over excited by it. Allowing pathways to heal and regain function over time. Strattera has a secondary effect as an noncompetitive NMDAr antagonist. Regardless of any therapeutic benefit or not for ADHD, it still can reduce and even help prevent tolerance from building. I also mentioned memantine (the alzheimer’s drug) which is sometimes prescribed for the reasons I just mentioned. It is an uncompetitive NMDA antagonist. More specifically a channel blocker that takes over for mg+ when kicked out. It allows normal function and only protects for over excitement. I take both strattera and memantine currently.

Adderall vacations only work for acute tolerance (receptors downregulated by the opponent process when an exogenous factor increases neurotransmitters.) Long term tolerance from damage from oxidative stress or apoptotic cascades triggered by excess glutamate is not helped. It takes longer than a weekend to heal and regain function. Essentially you end up useless the whole weekend feeling crappy. Then it takes 2 or 3 days to get back to full effect due to the steady state. So you are functioning sub par for those 2 or 3 days. So you only get 2 or 3 good days out of the week. Which is why I stopped doing it years ago. And it is also what is recommended for those with higher tolerance that won’t benefit from a short break.

NAC paired with ALCAR, many find benefit in that as it can for some allow them to stay focused and functional as they begin to lose energy. Aside from antioxidant and other benefits. Need to take B6 with NAC to prevent conversion to homocysteine.

The anecdotes I used about myself were from a while ago so not currently relevant for me. NAC I already take. Carnosine is also said to attenuate extrasynaptic excess glutamate. In which case Beta-Alanine is best for boosting Carnosine levels in the same way NAC is best for boosting glutathione levels.

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Thank you very much and sorry that I missed what you wanted to say.

Do you have some scientific source references about the idea of long term tolerance damage by amphetamines via NMDAs? I would love to get closer to understanding this and integrate this in ADxS.org.

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I found several studies about NMDA antagonists decreasing sensitisation but no study about decreasing tolerance to amphetamines.
One study reported benefits of (low dowses only) amantadin to prevent from amphetamine excitotoxicity. High doses worsened the excitotoxicity.

From this point of view I wonder if any doctor would take the risk to provide glutamate antagonists augmented to amphetamines.

I would be very interested in understanding the connection you describe, as it would be very helpful for many people affected by this issue. If you have any tips on where I can read up on this, I would be very grateful.

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I looked into this further.
It seemed to me that amphetamines only had an effect via AMPA/NMDA receptors to oxidative stress or apoptosis in extremely high doses, like in drug doses. I couldn’t find any sources indicating that this also occurs at medically relevant doses.
If you have any information on this, I would be grateful. It would be a very important point.

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There was at least on other study that concluded excitotoxicity can happen at regular prescribed doses. And specifically concluded that NMDA/glutamate excitotoxicity effects were the primary cause of long term tolerance.
I wish I had all the links to the things I discuss. When learning all this stuff I was desperate and not organizing bookmarks and just using default text which may not indicate why it was bookmarked. And frequently didn’t book Mark stuff as I had a million things open at a time and didn’t always bookmark stuff before a tab with 40 tabs was accidentally closed etc.

Also, I don’t know if it is just the feeling I get reading a ton of research. Doesn’t seem like people want to be on the radar of big pharma. And maybe don’t want to burn bridges of potential funding from them for things. Or maybe it is just the initial influence that has people always thinking in terms of abuse, not long term side effects.

That being said, I do know where I have this link. Click on the 2nd to last blue section and it will expand with a lot more docs. Ignore the “discontinued” info at the top. That is for a long ago product. Think it may have been an authorized generic, before Teva bought Shire.
https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cder/daf/index.cfm?event=overview.process&ApplNo=011522

From the official Adderall IR, U.S. FDA drug accompaniment documentation for prescribers, 2005. Granted, the context is for people new to the drug. But the term is “toxic”.
”Individual patient response to amphetamines varies widely. While toxic symptoms occasionally occur as an idiosyncrasy at doses as low as 2 mg, they are rare with doses of less than 15 mg; 30 mg can produce severe reactions, yet doses of 400 to 500 mg are not necessarily fatal.”

They watered it down in 2007 and eventually took it out citing they wanted to focus on encouraging those in which meds will help while discouraging the many people who get it and are not diagnosed and treating a disorder (like college kids studying, recreational use, etc).

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My current therapist is a neuropsychiatrist. Associate professor at NYU (prestigious college and medical program), affiliated with NYU Langone research and clinical treatment (also very prestigious), with a number of other accolades.

He is very much in favor of the neuroprotective effects of memantine, and when I first mentioned it, also brought up that it protects a number of other pathways besides NMDA via the same mechanism. Which I had read about already.

I found out about memantine on search results, trying to find any way to reduce Adderall tolerance, pointing to Reddit.com when people mentioned their own doctors prescribed memantine with amphetamine meds “to reduce and prevent amphetamine tolerance”. REsearched memantine and AMPA/NMDA/glutamate. (found out Alzheimer’s, parkinson’s, Huntington’s, ALS, and more often have NMDA over excitement causing damage in common with amphetamine. Oh Joy. There are studies indicating higher incidence of like parkinson’s for people prescribed amphetamines, but again, don’t have the links available.)

Then I searched for Strattera and NMDA antagonist and found out it is being studied clinically for that secondary benefit. Which explained how I reduced my Adderall effective dose, 80 mg IR not fully effective, to 40 mg fully effective in less than 9 months. And persisted when I stopped strattera, at least until I re-damage the pathways that were fixed by strattera preventing excitotoxicity over stimulation of NMDA/glutamate pathways. 3rd time I did stay on over a year and even 40mg was too strong but that is a longer explanation. Then searched reddit to see if strattera did the same for others and found I was not alone in that benefit. Try searching reddit for others who benefited and are prescribed memantine with amphetamine meds.

This link, if you are familiar with CA+ influx fron NMDAr protected channels when over excited, glutamate induced apoptosis, etc. This link has a lot of relevant info. And mentioned some NMDA antagonists that have been researched with benefits for neutral protection from methamphetamine.

Not exactly what I stated but on the right track. “The neuroprotective effect of memantine on methamphetamine-induced cognitive deficits”

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0166432816309196?via%3Dihub

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Try just searching for amphetamine and AMPA and NMDA agonism. Skip the NMDA antagonist or memantine for now. Did see a few things on the mechanism that affects the receptors and leads to overstimulation. One way is dopamine causing potentiation / sensitization of AMPA receptors, which make it easier to activate NMDA and overstimulate. And things like that.

Also just search reddit for “amphetamine memantine” or “adderall memantine” and see others it worked for.

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